View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:24 pm



Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
 Business models of erotic games 
Author Message
Rank 11
Rank 11

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:54 pm
Posts: 71
The Erotica & games thread discussed why erotic games aren't mainstream, but I thought it might also be worth talking about if and how they make money.

My impression from the games I have played so far is that outside of Japan, "serious" (i.e. more than a few minutes of content) erotic games are rarely making a lot of money. Two exceptions I know of: BoneTown and 3D SexVilla. BoneTown must have made some money because they created a sequel. The sequel didn't do too well though because they stopped development after that. 3D Sexvilla must be making money because they keep adding to it. SexSim from Ripened Peach was making enough that they are trying again with FutureLoveSpaceMachine on Patreon, but I don't think it qualified as a financial success per se (otherwise, more would have been invested in the development).

How did those make money? BoneTown just sold the game in the traditional manner. It probably helped that the game has a plot and "traditional" platform/fighting gameplay elements - enough, in fact, that they put a clothes-on version on Steam eventually. D-Dub marketed the game a lot and those traditional elements meant that any story / review / advertisement of the game could talk about the "funny" gameplay (using drugs as power-ups etc.) and not just about the sex. That both helps getting mentioned also on non-porn websites and was (and is) rare in porn games. I'd say BoneTown is probably better known than 3D SexVilla, even though the latter likely has made much more money.

3D SexVilla originally charged a monthly subscription, and later moved to an in-app purchases business model. It has always been in the habit of fleecing its players. It had a lot of content to begin with, and with user-generated content ("mods") that has increased exponentially. I suspect their current business model works like free-to-play games: they extract from you the maximum amount of cash you are willing to spend on the game. Most people don't spend much but you could easily spend hundreds if not thousands if you want to buy all (or even a significant fraction) of the content.

SexSim was free-to-play with in-app purchases from the beginning, but not nearly as costly as 3D SexVilla. Even if you bought everything you wouldn't spend all that much. Could be just lack of content of course. I suspect it never got enough users to make content generation truly profitable.

Conclusions:

Selling an adult interactive game in meaningful numbers is hard. I don't think it is enough that the game is good; word-of-bulletin-board only reaches the hard-core (ouch) fans, but that is not sufficient to make money. You need publicity. Getting publicity for a pure porn game is also hard: news writers want a story, something interesting - and 3D animated porn is not interesting to the general public, even when perfectly executed. So you need to have something interesting in the game besides the standard porn content and the technical implementation (unfortunately, most people do not care how your soft-body simulation redefines the porn game genre). Maybe new types of VR interaction (e.g. fasten a controller in your belt to control your avatar's hip movements with your own hips) would work, but some novel gameplay aspect would be better - something that makes for a good story.

I suspect that the problem is exacerbated by people being unwilling to enter credit card details on porn sites. I at least have a serious problem with that. The credit card processor is typically not one that I would know and trust. It might not be a coincidence that Patreon (who seems to be willing to support adult content) is being used by recent adult game projects such as FutureLoveSpaceMachine and VRtitties. But both of those are making about $1000/month, so huge sums of money are not easily made that way. XStoryPlayer is pretty well set up in this regard, however, supporting PayPal via Gaming-Coin.

However, selling content (in-app purchases) is also hard, because making the content costs money, but in the beginning you won't have lots of users, so you won't have enough users to make content creation worthwhile. But you need to have lots of content to make significant amount of money this way because otherwise there is not enough content for the "whales" to buy, which drives down your ARPU. Also, the more content you have, the more likely your game is to attract new users (assuming the content is used to e.g. cover various fetishes). Furthermore, you need to release new content relatively often to keep the interest of your users - preferably once a month at least. A modding community helps with this, but if you don't have enough users (=revenue), you can't invest in content creation enough to keep churning out content at a steady pace. Economies of scale are fundamental to making this work. One possible way around this is to have in-app purchases also for other things than content - e.g. various cheats (in-game money, character skill upgrades, etc.). In the mobile game world, a traditional way is to allow people to progress faster by using money. This can be quite subtle or very obnoxious depending on how it is implemented.

Of course, if you are selling content, then you probably need to give away the basic game for free. This is not a huge problem, you would just remove most of the content from the free game (aside from a few basic interactions) and sell that content at a combined price similar to the cost of the full game. Also, people are used to getting porn for free on the internet - it might be easier to get their initial attention with a free offering (a free game sounds much better than a free demo, although it is substantially the same thing...).

A problem with selling content is that it easily locks down your technology. 3D SexVilla cannot easily upgrade their technology because they have a huge amount of legacy content that a new game engine would not be able to use. But that would be a good problem to have...

How this relates to XStoryPlayer:

1) No matter what your business model is, you need publicity, and for that you need a good story. Not just that it is a good sex game, but something that piques the interest of people in general. Something that can be worked into clickbait.

2) I think the problem with the traditional games selling model is that your target audience, even with good publicity, is not big enough to sell the game at the same price to everyone, especially since once you have sold the game you are not getting any more money from that user for a long time. You might be able to sell to 10000 people at $18 each, resulting in $180 000, but you are better off if you can sell to 10000 people at $10, 5000 people at $18, 4000 people at $25, 900 people at $50 and 100 people at $100 (selling to more people because of the lower entry cost, and selling various amounts of extra content to some people, making $340 000 overall). You already support Gaming-Coin so in-game purchases would be relatively easy to implement. For example, the basic game could include one short story that demoes the game features, and then additional stories, features and content could be made available for in-app purchase. Content such as clothing, hair, sex tools, furniture, locations, animations and poses would be good for in-app purchases, and you could also separately sell features like the ability to customize girls (change breast size and so on). User-generated mods would also support this because they would probably often require that the user has purchased certain additional content (especially poses and animations) that the mod uses. And of course the stories could include cheats as in-app purchases.

Of course you have to honor the Offbeatr buyers, but they could just be given the related in-app purchases for free.

I know that you want to have a simple "buy once" pricing with a fair price, and I respect that, but I'm afraid that your target audience is just not big enough to support that business model, and that eventually XStoryPlayer will die when you can no longer justify investing time in it. I'd rather you charge more (from those who can afford it) if that helps you survive.


Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:14 pm
Profile
Rank 11
Rank 11

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 70
You make some good points, Juddre.

I get that the business model with XStoryPlayer isn't exactly compete-with-EA-and-Rockstar-sized in its ambition, but what happened to making games for the sake of fun? There's no harm in sharing what you've created and charging for the privilege. Anyone here could easily learn to code, model in 3D and spend hours of their spare time creating something like this but X Moon got here first and that's OK. Other people create things like paintings, sculptures and music, they then charge a little bit for it because there are people out there who want to buy art.

I'm pretty sure the guys at X Moon all have jobs elsewhere to pay their bills (or his/her bills, I don't know the staff count) and they/he/she does this out of sheer fun and "because they can".

Take this scenario for example: The reason so many people were crying out for a single player campaign in the recent Star Wars Battlefront (along with ground-to-space battles and Galactic Conquest) is because EA is a huge corporation, controlled, mainly by its finances and team of risk assessors who'll say "sure, making a single player campaign will bring in xxxx millions of dollars but cutting the campaign will save xxxx amount in man-hours and you'll still make xxxx millions through pre-orders alone. That's how the big corporations work - it doesn't matter what the "business model" is - if it means that end users don't have as much personal fun through using model A in favor of model B because B brings in the most cash - even if it's $1 in difference - they'll go with model B.

Eventually, the artists and devs at EA (who all have their jobs because they're passionate about what they do) got to make this "single player" content to please both themselves and the fans (and mop up some extra cash along the way. I imagine if the extra cash wasn't part of it, the risk assessment team and board of directors would still be alienating the player base further).

It's sad that so many people are of the mindset that financial riches equal ultimate success nowadays. Sure, you could make a huge boat load of cash, store it, invest it, put it in high-interest savings accounts until it grows but, by the time you get to enjoy it, you're stressed, you've worked hard and tirelessly for the biggest percentage of your life, then you die. And guess what - you don't take those riches with you. Once you're gone, it all goes "back in the box" or your family gets to enjoy it while you decompose.

Personally, I feel there's a space right here, in this small corner of the internet for good, well made and fun games like this, away from the prying eyes of corporate monsters who have access to millions of dollars and the finest legal support money can buy.

How much "real" porn have you paid for in the last 6 months? Well, I can't talk for you but I've found more than enough free porn on the internet. If this game was as mainstream as any well-known porn studio title or any triple-a game title, it would already be ripped, cracked and torrented by now. But, the fact that this is a small, underground project, means that it hasn't attracted the attention of crackers yet. In my opinion, that's a good thing because the devs get the money they've asked for (if only the music industry was the same).

Yes - it's pornographic in its nature. Yes - it could be looked at as "perverted" by right-wing conservatives and overtly-religious extremist snobs who've drunk the kool aid and no - it won't be as mainstream, polished and financially successful as a porn version of The Sims 4 or GTA 5. None of that matters. What matters is that X Moon - a completely independent entity has created something unique and worth continuing with, for the sake of its small and loyal player base.

However, I did feel a bit weird giving credit card details out over the internet. Paypal would have been useful :lol:


Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:20 am
Profile
Rank 11
Rank 11

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:54 pm
Posts: 71
I think in the best case games are made for fun and profit. A game made purely for profit has no soul (and EA has created many good examples of that), and a game created purely for fun with no regard for profit will develop very slowly because the creators cannot invest much time and resources in it. Having XStoryPlayer be just a fun hobby project for its creators is of course perfectly OK, but I would prefer it to develop faster and get more content - and that requires money. Money buys quality art assets, game engine licenses, subcontracted work, marketing, etc. - not to mention time to work on the game, because you don't have to work on something else for a living. I think you are correct that the XMoon people have other jobs that actually pay the bills, but I also think they would be able to spend more effort on XStoryPlayer if it brought in more cash.

I think the XMoon developers would still have fun even if they made more money, and they would still strive for the best game rather than the one that makes the most money. But making money and striving for the best game are not mutually exclusive. For instance, you can do in-app purchases in a way that is fair to users and does not prey on them (even though plenty of unscrupulous developers *cough* SexVilla *cough* do the opposite).

It's true that with more publicity, there would also be more cracked copies of XStoryPlayer in circulation, but on the other hand the people who are willing to pay for it are probably also wary of downloading pirated software - how do you know it is not a trojan? And continuous generation of new add-on content means that cracked copies quickly depreciate in value for the user, and they may even be converted to a paying user when they want to access the new content for which no pirated version exists yet.

Ultimately, I think moving to an in-app purchase model is a given if any kind of financial success is sought after - it simply works very well for porn games. However, I think that will not be enough by itself, the player base is simply not large enough to support the content creation. Publicity is still needed to expand the player base - you still need the interesting story. That does not mean that XStoryPlayer would have to be mainstream though. You just need something that people in general would find interesting and that can be talked about also in mainstream media. Of course, even having that, getting the media people to bite is still hard, but then it is at least possible.


Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:36 am
Profile
Rank 16
Rank 16

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:29 pm
Posts: 350
As a counter example, Fek (maker of furry BDSM game Rack) is making almost $8k a month developing Rack 2. What does he have that the others don't? An established fan base who already have a history of giving him money for commissions of his artwork and an underserved niche that he's nailing.


Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:30 am
Profile
Rank 11
Rank 11

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:54 pm
Posts: 71
burning wrote:
As a counter example, Fek (maker of furry BDSM game Rack) is making almost $8k a month developing Rack 2.


That's an interesting case. Fek has a little over thousand supporters, most of whom contribute $10 (he is currently making over $9k after the Patreon cut). Compared to FutureLoveSpaceMachine, the contribution amounts are similar, but the number of supporters is much larger for Rack. Compared to VRtitties, the number of supporters is similar, but the average contribution amount is much larger for Rack ($1 for VRtitties vs. $10 for Rack). Most likely VRtitties is leaving money on the table with the small requested contribution (for most people there is little difference between $1 and $5 in a case like this), but on the other hand Rack probably has more loyal users.

I think the success of the Rack Patreon is down to two factors. Firstly, as you mentioned, Fek is addressing an underserved niche and doing it well. The underserved part deserves special mention - I mean, Furry does not even have a PornHub category of its own, and Fek is addressing a sub-category of it (BDSM) - talk about being specific. Secondly, I think Fek benefits from being able to reach a large fraction of his addressable market through FurAffinity. He is quite well known too, 2.35% of the people finding the site through a search engine are searching for "fek" (according to Alexa).

However, the underserved market part does not apply to XStoryPlayer. Addressing the underserved niche of interactive sex games is not the same thing as addressing the underserved niche of BDSM furry porn. The demand served by sex games can also be met to some degree by regular sex videos, which are plentiful, free and easy to find. Whereas the demand for BDSM furry porn can only be met by BDSM furry porn, which is very sparsely available.

The part that does apply is being able to reach your addressable market. Currently XStoryPlayer is relatively unknown. That needs to change, and it won't happen by itself.


Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:29 pm
Profile
Rank 11
Rank 11

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 70
Well, if the devs are reading this, I'm sure they could agree that a little marketing and promotional support wouldn't hurt. You've made some great points, Juddre and I don't think the X Moon team would sniff at having a bit more cash to help speed up and improve development.

I'm a graphic designer by trade (initially schooled in the UK and a self-disciplined freelancer for over 11 years), currently working a full time position for a high-end rug and home furnishings company. With my editorial knowledge, marketing background, copy writing and all-round "dark art" of branding and sales knowledge, I'd be happy to put some time aside to help out.

I'd have to charge something for my time, of course. After all, electricity, Adobe CC subscriptions and licences to use typefaces aren't free, but I've always told my most successful clients that investing in the right kind of "polish" early on in the race can really give your project a head-start. If you're of the mindset of "I've got my own copy of Photoshop, I can handle it myself" but lack the discipline and careful planning of effective design rules, then all it takes is for the kerning or leading to be slightly off in the type, or the wrong primary colours to be used in the wrong context and you've unwittingly alienated the subconscious mind of (potentially) an entire fan base willing to buy.


Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:32 pm
Profile
Rank 11
Rank 11

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:54 pm
Posts: 71
Probably too early to start marketing yet. Once first patch to 4.0 is out (i.e. 4.0 is getting stable) would be a good time. But for that 4.0 needs Key Selling Points, and a story. VR and hand controller support is probably going to be a given for new games at that time - more of a basic requirement than a differentiator. Possible KSPs:
  • Free movement and softbody and fluid simulation (which is there already) - but this is difficult to describe, you have to experience it to appreciate the difference. Moreover, the same features are becoming available to other games through game engines.
  • Sandbox aspect - I actually spent most of my playing time in the dungeon "sandbox" rather than playing the story. You could enhance that aspect by giving the girls a greater variety of reactions to the things the player does, and greater autonomy. For example, allow you to tickle the girls to make them laugh, and if the girl is aroused and you touch their breast maybe they would put their hand on you character's dick and stroke it. Or if you have told them to suck you maybe they suddenly stop, go down on all fours and tell you to fuck them. Incidentally, current chat interface does not really work very well. Trying to remember what keywords the girls understand is offputting, and the silent chat communication breaks the immersion too. Preferably (since high quality voice synthesis is probably not feasible) you should use some kind of fake speech (like in The Sims game) for the girls - they all speak a "foreign" language. The chat text is then a "translation", and you are using a selection of canned commands in that language (which are then spoken out) to communicate with them. Such a fake language could still be made to convey emotion, it would break immersion much less than the current chat system, it would be relatively easy to programmatically create new voices (by playing with pitch, the set of samples used, etc.) and canned commands would provide a much easier-to-use interface (and most importantly, one that can be made to work with VR). Speech recognition is of course nice too but not everyone is able to shout "suck my dick" while playing at home...
  • Ability for users to easily create and share their own stories (the sharing part is important - currently that is a big barrier). The best way to do this would be to have a scripting language like now, and then a GUI that allows you to configure things made with the scripting language. Then you would have many levels of customization, in decreasing order of skills needed: 3D modeling and rigging - 3D animation and texturing - scripting - GUI based configuration. Animators would use models created by modelers, script writers would use animations created by animators, GUI users would customize models created by modelers using morphs and configure packaged scripts to give their characters different behaviors, and so on, allowing people to work on the layers they are comfortable with and provide new tools to other people working on the higher layers. And you would also need some kind of community web site where people could upload their creations. But this would be a huge effort, and unfortunately modding tends to help a game only after it reaches at least moderate success on its own - you need a reasonable number of users to have a modding community that is vibrant enough to add value to the game and create a positive feedback loop. I think currently XStoryPlayer is (was) on the brink of having such a modding community, but it is not quite there yet, and the long wait for 4.0 is not helping.
  • I'm tempted to put game character AI here, but that is so often over-promised and under-delivered that I at least tend to ignore any such claims
  • VR glove (such as Manus) or Leap Motion support, if either is deployed in any meaningful numbers by that time (probably not, but who knows - e.g. Oculus could buy them)

Out of all of these, enhancing the sandbox aspect seems the most promising to me. It can be built out gradually and allows you to deliver features incrementally rather than having to build everything required for a story before releasing. Physics sandbox games have been proven popular in their own right, and I think "physics sandbox with sex" is a big part of why XStoryPlayer is a good game. Focusing on the stories kind of misses that point. You could instead focus on providing components that the people can use to play in the sandbox, and making the girls interact more with the components and try to make it possible to combine components as much as possible. For example, there is a fucking machine, but if I want to make a second fucking machine and have one fuck the girl in the mouth and the other in the ass, that requires modding. Or maybe I want to put a girl in chains, hoist her high, then add three horny guys to the room, and watch what happens when the girl is slowly lowered back. Or maybe I want to fill a swimming pool with cum and then push a girl into it, making her swim around in it. Or maybe I want to attach girls to a cart and make them pull it while I ride in the cart. VR makes it very easy and intuitive to manipulate things in 3D with the hand controllers - I think this could work really well, if the physics simulation can be made powerful enough, and VR capable computers are pretty powerful.

So making the sandbox aspect work would require creating a VR and hand controlled based UI for how things can be added to or removed from the current scene, how things can be moved and rotated, how characters are customized (setting hair color, breast size and so on), and how character behavior (how horny they are, what sexual acts they prefer, do they like each other, how fast they move, how strong they are, etc.) can be modified. You would probably need to add a non-VR UI too that works with keyboard and mouse, but VR sandbox experience is what would give you the publicity and that's what you would build the "story" around. From Garry's Mod, to Goat Simulator, to XStoryPlayer.

Of course, all the other KSPs above can be made to work together with this, so you could still have user-created stories (i.e. shared sandbox configurations) and modding. The stories as they are in current XStoryPlayer would be essentially pre-configured sandboxes with lots of scripted triggers. The difference to the current model is that currently XStoryPlayer is developed story-first and the sandbox is just a bonus. My suggestion is that it should be sandbox first and stories are just a bonus.


Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:35 pm
Profile
Rank 11
Rank 11

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 70
More great suggestions there Juddre. Pretty much everything you mentioned are things that would add rewarding, fun game play and value for sure. The unique feel of the game engine and physics alone are enough to keep people's attention, it's just grabbing their attention first that's the problem...

Personally, I feel that a well-written story, with characters that people can relate to are very important for building a unique and solid IP that will last and grow. Perhaps if the story (campaign) was featured as a way to "earn" more items, animations, sounds or even models in the sandbox, people will have incentive to play the campaign - Perhaps throw in some RPG elements to REALLY set the game ahead of the competition and once people are "hooked", it will be very hard to let go.

My personal experience of these games went something like this: Intrigue, investigate, love it for a few days, play it to death, then put it aside after a couple of weeks after realizing it wasn't going any further. I was almost obsessed with it - it was so new and different but I was constantly left feeling like there should be more.

If the characters and storylines are immersive enough, people will fall for the characters and remember them, giving the game high replay value and opening the door for expansion, word-of-mouth promotion and, ultimately growth and development of the XStoryPlayer "brand".

The reason Thrixxx *spit* and games like 3DSexVilla *double spit* are still going is because Thomas Schneider *boo, hiss etc.* invested money in good design and marketing for his brand. Take a look at the website for example - it's clean, quick, easy to navigate with modern and (almost) clever branding. I would have used a far cleaner and more personable, timeless typeface than the free Google web font "Asap" though. Anyway, I digress - They came along at a time where there were almost no 3D pornographic games to speak of, at least none worth noting and even fewer that would run very well on people's PCs. There were flash games and 2D adult games but the Thrixxx games were unique in that they were interactive and 3D, but as far as their KSPs go, that was about it. The only reason they became popular is because they invested in that all-important marketing and design in order to "shout" the loudest.

There's been Artificial Academy and Artificial Girl (all very limited compared to XStoryPlayer I feel) but even they are now subjected to infinite obscurity through lack of any real marketing direction.

What X Moon needs is to put whatever "profit" it has into promoting XSP at it's current stage (I don't pay money for things lightly and I don't regret buying this at all). I'm sure they can achieve XSP v4.0 in a few more months and I imagine they would have learned quite a bit more about everything by then.

Again, as a graphic designer, I was able to see past the clunky website, the confusing graphics and the fact that they featured a generic, 3D woman's face higher up in the call-to-action hierarchy than the actual Unique Selling Points of the game. After all, I knew that XSP was new, independent and 'underground', so they probably did everything themselves or at least on a very, very tight budget.

Good design and marketing is essential for determining the longevity and success of a good product.


Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:27 am
Profile
Rank 11
Rank 11

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 70
Apologies if I keep going on about it but here's a good read...

http://blog.hubspot.com/agency/the-importance-of-design-in-all-marketing-campaigns#sm.00jdh1nq1e4dd4f11ge28x10qh085


Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:29 am
Profile
Rank 11
Rank 11

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:54 pm
Posts: 71
I agree that a good story helps a lot in creating IP that you can build on. Recent Angry Birds movie is actually good example of that; the Angry Birds IP used to have the problem that the characters had no depth. The movie was created largely to solve that problem. However, "good" is the operative word here - as in, professionally written and emotionally appealing. Unfortunately "porn with a good story" is almost a contradiction in terms, usually the characters are one-dimensional cliches because most of the audience cares far more about their genitals than their minds. Certainly can be done, but I wouldn't want to bet on it, except if by pure luck some developer or modder happens to be a good writer too. Anyone can write an erotic story, but writing characters that people love (or love to hate) - that's an art (and no, Angry Birds did not really manage that, at least not for me - but maybe I wasn't the target audience either). One possibility would be to find inspiration from http://www.asstr.org/. Also, it is difficult to tell a story and build characters just using gameplay - cutscenes using game engine generated footage would work better, but that requires more work. Or you could do a long introductory cutscene using just still pictures and text (either illustrated book or comic format).

However, lacking the good story, a plain old product promise will do. Give people something they like, and they will buy more of the same, be it sequels or additional content. So if a great story is not in the cards for now, a great sexual sandbox (hey, that has a nice ring to it) experience will be enough to get XMoon to the stage where a great story is possible.

Yeah, the XMoon website could use some improvement. I mean, just try to find out on the site what XStoryPlayer actually is, let alone why you should buy it. Nothing on the main page. You go to "Learn More", the first thing it says is "Advanced Physics". Scrolling down to the third item ("Gameplay") finally tells you what the product is. It seems to be assumed that you already know what it is when you are coming to the site.

Not sure whether XMoon should start promoting immediately or when they have a good sandbox story and full VR support. VR is still niche, but by definition people who have it have disposable income. A little like the iPhone in that regard, although much more niche of course. And talking of niches, "roomscale VR sex experiences" is a niche that is very underserved at the moment. And whether or not the audience is big, VR support gives the (correct) impression that the game is cutting edge as far as technology is concerned. And having the sandbox (or some other) story would help in getting media traction together with the marketing push. Of course, marketing is not a one-time thing, but the money available is probably going to be very limited.


Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:51 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 14 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group.
Designed by X-Moon Productions.